Ecclesia Dei commission discusses papal document
At a December 12 meeting, the Ecclesia Dei commission discussed a papal document that will broaden access to the traditional Latin Mass, Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez confirmed after the Tuesday-morning session. The Chilean cardinal said that he expects Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) to release the document in the near future.
Cardinal Medina Estevez, the former prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, is a member of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, which was set up in 1988 to supervise Vatican relations with traditionalist Catholics. He confirmed that the group’s December 12 meeting was dedicated entirely to a discussion of a papal initiative that will allow more liberal use of the Tridentine rite.
Even the most intractable skeptic has to admit that this is no longer a rumor. It’s now just a question of when it will be released and for what exactly it will give permission.
Technorati Tags:Catholic, Latin, liturgy, Mass, Traditionalist, Tridentine, Vatican
You know what would be great? The Tridentine Mass in English (translated well). I don’t like Mass that I can’t understand.
I don’t have a problem with the Novus Ordo (and many issues with those who do), but the Tridentine just bugs me.
Debbie,
What do you mean by bugs? This is a serious question.
And what if a translation that is done well (and does not bug you) turns out to bug someone else? Then what shall we do?
How can the Tridentine Rite “bug” you?
You’re kidding right?
If one uses the ‘62 Missal which is widely available from a variety of sources there is no problem understanding or comprehending what is ocurring during the Trid Mass.
I’m a recent devotee to the Trid Mass and am now quite enamored with it. I’ll attend the Novus Ordo if a Trid Rite is not available but I certainly prefer the Trid Rite.
And it is certain that there has NEVER been a known instance of a priest who celebrates the Trid Rite dressing himself up in a Barney or clown costume.
I think some of the negative attitues towards the Trid Rite show a lack of tolerance and diversity.
You know what would be great? The Tridentine Mass in English (translated well). I don’t like Mass that I can’t understand.
I think what you are looking for is the Anglican use Mass. It is beautiful and in English.
Joe:
I’m not in any way suggesting that the Church ought to do things the way I want them done just because I would like it better that way. It’s His Church, not mine, and if He likes Mass said in Latin, then by golly, the Church had better get her act together and say it in Latin.
All I’m sayin is that I like it in English, because I like to understand things, especially things about God. Tridentine Mass bugs me because of the Latin, no other reason.
Abe:
Se above. Not kidding. Don’t like Latin. Don’t much like having to read along, either.
Barney costumes at MASS???? What ARE these people thinking?? That’s probably an abomination.
But it’s not the fault of the Novus Ordo, nor is it the fault of Vatican II, nor is it the fault of saying Mass in languages other than Latin.
(I realise that you have not laid any sort of blame here; I’m more upset at a friend of mine who has.)
Yes, clearly my problem is a lack of tolerance and diversity.
Look, you can prefer the Trid Mass all you like. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion that it is more reverent, more pious, whatever. Good for you. All I’m saying is that I like my time with Jesus to be in a language that I understand.
What authority does a Motu Proprio have? Will this have force of law? Is it a direct document from the Pope, or a document that the Pope approves but doesn’t issue himself?
*deep breath*
OK. To more fully explain the problems I have with the Tridentine Mass:
1. It’s in Latin. Yes, there are Missals, but I don’t like Missals. I don’t like to have to try to figure out where we are and read along and get lost and accidentally skip ahead and get more lost and miss the good parts.
2. The consecration is (in my experience, maybe this is always true?) said silently, or so quietly that I can’t hear it. Sorry, guys, but this is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY, EVER. I don’t want to miss a syllable of it. Printed on the page? Not good enough for me. God has entered the room, the Word has become Flesh, and it’s done by the WORDS of the PRIEST. Not by the words on the paper that I’m reading. I want to HEAR it. I want to rejoice with Mary that the Word is Incarnate by words, by human speech, now so elevated by this miracle. God is SO GOOD to us, and I don’t like missing it. Yes, there’s a bell. The bell does not make Christ Present.
Those are my ONLY objections to the Trid Mass. Priest facing the altar, not the people? FINE. The length, number, and content of the prayers that we seem to SKIP in the Novus Ordo? Give ‘em back! Please! The lack of the Sign of Peace? I actually prefer that. I get distracted having to say hi to strangers between the Consecration and Receiving Him. Speak English and speak up. That’s all I want.
Again, though, I will say this, just in case someone missed it: this Church belongs to Christ, and He is kind enough to let me be part of it. I do not own the Church, I do not guide it. If the Vatican comes out and says that all Masses from now on will be Tridentine, I will rejoice that they have left me Jesus.
There have been abuses, certainly, with the changes made to the Liturgy. But it got me here, got me to Rome. I used to be a heretic, and I’m not anymore. The Church prays as She believes, and I learned more from attending (English) Mass than I ever learned from people talking about what the Church teaches.
I said in my first comment that I have issues with those who prefer Trid Mass. I do. Most of the people I’ve met who prefer it are either crackpot schismatics or holier-than-thou folks who think that God hears you better in Latin. That Latin is somehow more holy than English. That they themselves are more holy because they can pray in Latin. (you should here imagine me making all manner of faces)
Maybe there are nice, normal folks who like the Trid Mass for other reasons, and don’t think they’re better than me. I really hope to meet such people, and soon.
Of course I’m biased but I think I’m a normal folk and i’d love to meet you if you’re ever in the DC/Northern Va area.
(kidding Debbie).
As far as God not hearing me unless it’s in Latin that could explain why I’ve yet to win the Publishers Clearing House sweepstakes after all these years. I’m going to start praying in Latin now and see if that helps.
Seriously though; our vocal participation in the Mass has no effect whatsoever on the Consecration. Sure, it might be nice to hear what the priest is saying but our ability to either hear or understand the words is wholly irrelevant. Subjectively speaking it might make one feel better about the consecration but the bottom line is that with or without us the priest still is able to affect the consecration.
It’s quite clear to me that you are NOT criticizing Tridders and that you are fine with whatever the Church says. I like everything you said in your last post especially about the sign of peace which is such a huge and unnecessary distraction.
There are lots of really nice people who’d love to hear the mass in Latin once in a while, yes. There are a lot of really nice people who love the church and would like this wound the attempted break made 40 years ago healed soon, too.
And Debbie, I don’t think you can miss the good parts just because you might be riffling through a missal. He’s present because He wills it. Besides, the Latin mass is really easy to learn and you *know* what happens during the mass just like I do. It’s very easy to follow. =)
That Latin is somehow more holy than English.
Well, it is. As Pope Paul VI put it in his General Audience of November 26, 1969, it is the language of the angels.
However, I doubt the vernacular Mass will be going away any time soon so there’s really no worry about being forced to assist at a traditional Mass.
All most traditionalists want is the same freedom that other Catholics already have. A 45-minute commute each way to assist at Mass is a pain in the backside sometimes.
I hope this motu proprio will have teeth to it
unlike the 1984 Indult and the motu proprio
Ecclesia Dei. It is probably too much to hope
for but maybe the motu proprio will include
an apostolic administration. We will see.