These Catholic hospitals do the right thing

10 comments

• I really don’t understand what is so difficult for some people to understand regarding “proportionate reasons.” Bush is not fully pro-life but he is much more so than Kerry. Therefore, I will reluctantly be voting for a person who is still in some instances pro-abortion for the reason that he will try to limit abortion and Kerry will not. That is a proportional reason.

• Check out Jimmy Akin’s blog. He just put the smackdown on the Fr. Greeley’s of the world regarding “proportionate reasons.”

• Damian,

  “I really don: George Skelton, Los Angeles Times Jun 5, 2000)

  How is that being pro-life?  And is that what Archbishop Burke means by “proportionate reasons?”

  Cam

• Damian,

  What is the link for James Akins’ blog? 

• Notice he doesnn.  President Bush is one of them, btw; so is the RNC.

  Is it sad, yes, but it is just a tree in the great forest of the United States.  We have many other things that are important on a scale near abortion….the economy, homeland security, employment and there are others.

  All things being equal, I would vote for Bush, because he is LESS pro-abort than Kerry.  I am not happy about this decision I have to make, but nevertheless, I will do it.

  I support President Bush on most issues, but I disagree wholeheartedly with him on his pro-life stance.  It is not nearly a strong enough stance.

  ————-

  Dom,

  The magnitude of abortion, euthanasia, manipulation of unborn life, gay marriage, and so on are such that they outweigh the other considerations.

  That is fine for those of us who are Catholic.  But what about Lutherans, Baptists, Muslims, and Jews?

  We need to convince them.  We can’t do it from a Catholic position, because it is doesn’t matter to them what the Pope says.  So, until we can prove that to others, it is pre-eminent, but it is not the only issue.  It is not the sole defining issue.  For most, abortion is a second-tier issue.  THAT is my point.

  However, we are off topic.  We agree on what Ratzinger, Burke et al say.  We are on the same page.  We agree that those who “formally” participate should not receive Holy Communion.  We agree that the vast majority at best, participate from a “remote material” position, therefore cannot be denied Holy Communion.

  Cam

• It’s all the old “I’m not so bad—look at that” thing.  The final refuge of sin is “I’m only human, sniff, sniff, poor little me.”

  If A gets off the hook, I should be able to get off the hook too, and if we work together, who knows what could happen.  Whoopee.

  Is that the point, really? A whole lot of people think it is.

• Ity and Kennedy and Pelosi) But MATERIAL participation must be left to the conscience of the indivdual. (ie. most Democrats)”

  My point is this…and it has been all along….We cannot deny Holy Communion unless there is formal participation.  I have understood this all along.  For someone like Kerry, yes deny, but for someone like my assistant manager, we can’t, even though she supports abortion.  Why precisely because of what Cardinal Ratzinger and the rest have been saying.

  ———————-

  lrslattery,

  “It is clear to me, however, that a Catholic would be putting their eternal salvation at risk for voting for the rned to live by exceptions. They say that abortion should remain legal and widely available because of the tiny, tiny number of women who are raped and become pregnant. We are told that partial-birth abortion should remain legal because of the tiny, tiny chance that a woman might need it or endanger her health. We makes excuses for birth control, divorce, promiscuity, and so on. It’s gotten to the point that anytime there’s an exception or excuse made, the exception becomes the rule. Give an inch and they’ll take the mile. It’s the same here. An obscure exemption is identified; so obscure that it’s only mentioned in a footnote to Ratzinger’s letter. But now it’s become the rule.

  And why has this gotten the national front-page play it has? You only have to look at where this story is appearing: The Washington Post. Who was the cardinal who was publicly embarrassed because he said that Cardinal Ratzinger said that it’s up to individual bishops to decide whether to deny Communion to pro-abortion politicians when Ratzinger really said the bishop “must” deny it? Whose archdiocese does the Washington Post reside in? It doesn’t take a genius to connect the dots.

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  3910
  2004-09-09 11:36:51
  2004-09-09 15:36:51
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  16663
  
  camilam42@gmail.com
  
  10.3.0.101
  2004-09-09 13:18:03
  2004-09-09 17:18:03
  We have become a people of letter as soon as possible, in order to present clearly the Church

  In that scenario, a Catholic who personally opposes abortion rights, votes for a candidate who supports abortion rights “for what are called proportionate reasons,” he said.

  Each individual Catholic must weigh all the moral issues a candidate stands for alongside the candidate’s position on abortion rights.

  And that is called remote material cooperation and if the reasons are really proportionate, and the person remains clear about his or her opposition to abortion, that can be done,” Burke said.

  Finally Burke says, “What is a proportionate reason to justify favoring the taking of an innocent, defenseless human life? And I just leave that to you as a question. That’s the question that has to be answered in your conscience. What is the proportionate reason?”

  Notice he doesn’t say withhold Holy Communion, he says, “That’s the question that has to be answered in your conscience.”

  It is up to the individual to determine what is in his conscience.  It is not up to the celebrant or the bishop, UNLESS he formally participates.

  It is very close to the idea of formal and material heresy.  The Church expressly distinguishes between “formal” and “material” heretics. A “formal” heretic rejects the Church and its teaching absolutely and with full deliberation; a “material” heretic rejects the Church from lack of knowledge, being influenced by false prejudice or by an anti-Catholic upbringing.

  Apply this principle to the current situation and it is very much in line with what Archbishop Burke is getting at.

  Cam

• Most people have sense enough to know that they are Catholics first and Americans second.

  I still say that Bush went to war in Iraq when they could not find Bin Laden. People started praying for the Iraq War long before it happened. Get in tune in the Spirit. God knew about 9-11 and the Iraq War. God and the Vatican were against both of them.

  Vote for whomever you like.

  Bush has not done a thing for pro life in over two years.  Do you think he really cares? 

  Doubt it.  He avoids the stem cell issue except when the polls come out. Both men are opportunists.

  The secular media is tired of the judgemental attitudes that the prolifers have against helping women. Tell John Kerry in the Spirit what you think and tell the President what you think about their positions about things. If you don’t know ask God and the Holy Spirit what that is.

  Get rid of being over worry about am I doing it “cooooorrrrrectly”.

• Thank you for the Akin article. I agree with almost everything in the article, except when it comes to the importance of education in the debate. I believe that good Catholic education could help to bring about some changes.
  “Make no mistake: Abortion is the preeminent moral issue of our time. It is the black hole that out-masses every other issue. Presenting any other issues as if they were proportionate to it is nothing but smoke and mirrors.”
  Agreed.
  “Jobs? The economy? Taxes? Education? The environment? Immigration? Forget it. We do not have nine million people dying in a typical president’s become the rule.

  And why has this gotten the national front-page play it has? You only have to look at where this story is appearing: The Washington Post. Who was the cardinal who was publicly embarrassed because he said that Cardinal Ratzinger said that it’s up to individual bishops to decide whether to deny Communion to pro-abortion politicians when Ratzinger really said the bishop “must” deny it? Whose archdiocese does the Washington Post reside in? It doesn’t take a genius to connect the dots.

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  camilam42@gmail.com
  
  10.3.0.101
  2004-09-09 13:18:03
  2004-09-09 17:18:03
  We have become a people of bout the culture of life,e doing the same thing thinking it might do their cause some good or cause them to “get off the hook.”

• Thank you for the Akin article. I agree with almost everything in the article, except when it comes to the importance of education in the debate. I believe that good Catholic education could help to bring about some changes.
  “Make no mistake: Abortion is the preeminent moral issue of our time. It is the black hole that out-masses every other issue. Presenting any other issues as if they were proportionate to it is nothing but smoke and mirrors.”
  Agreed.
  “Jobs? The economy? Taxes? Education? The environment? Immigration? Forget it. We do not have nine million people dying in a typical presidents>publish
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  15060
  
  stark61555@earthlink.net
  http://findmeinfloridaagain.blogspot.com
  69.22.89.245
  2004-09-10 16:18:41
  2004-09-10 20:18:41
  Most people have sense enough to know that they are Catholics first and Americans second.

  I still say that Bush went to war in Iraq when they could not find Bin Laden. People started praying for the Iraq War long before it happened. Get in tune in the Spirit. God knew about 9-11 and the Iraq War. God and the Vatican were against both of them.

  Vote for whomever you like.

  Bush has not done a thing for pro life in over two years.  Do you think he really cares? 

  Doubt it.  He avoids the stem cell issue except when the polls come out. Both men are opportunists.

  The secular media is tired of the judgemental attitudes that the prolifers have against helping women. Tell John Kerry in the Spirit what you think and tell the President what you think about their positions about things. If you don’t know ask God and the Holy Spirit what that is.

  Get rid of being over worry about am I doing it “cooooorrrrrectly”.