On Friday, Melanie and I went to the local Carmelite convent for the Feast of St. Therese. They are a cloistered group of nuns whose convent is dedicated to Therese and every year they have a special Mass for the feast. This was my first time. Boy, was it packed. I ended up standing in the entrance to the chapel. The Mass was presided over by Bishop Francis Irwin, an auxiliary for Boston, who did a good job. (He avoided all those “bishopy” antics, like thanking everybody in creation at the end of the Mass or breaking the rubrics just because he’s a bishop, and other inappropriate things.) His homily was good, except I think he might have found better inspiration in the words of St. Therese than having to go the lyrics for Bette Midler’s song “The Rose.”
In any case, that was a minor matter. The congregation was enthusiastic, even if the average age was probably somewhere north of 60. Still, they sang the old classics with gusto. And at the end we got beautiful roses to take home with us.
one addendum… Carmelite nuns live in monasterys, not convents. Though I’m not exactly sure what the technical distinction is…
I always thought that was strange, since I though monks lived in monasteries. I’d love to find out what the difference is.
Dom: A note for prayer. I believe Father Brian (Stueby?) Bachand concelebrated with Bishop Irwin.
His sister-in-law and my dear friend, Dolores, is battling cancer for the 4th time (she’s only in her late 30’s). Please pray for her.
Also, notice that the closest showing of St. Therese’s movie is Brooklyn….
Joe
probably because it started as a monastic order… hermits living on Mount Carmel… to emphasize that it is enclosed, where a convent is not necessarily cloistered.
Brian,
“I wouldnr hand, Kerry may *attend* Mass but he’s not playing by the rules. He violates the most foundational requirements for a catholic—he advocates murder of a child by its own mother. That trumps anything else about him because it’s demonic. That’s only one of his areas of apostacy.
As Catholics, on Sunday morning, our doors are open to the street. Any bum can walk in and some do. We do not ask questions in the Holy Communion line. Many people receive without being properly disposed. It is not something to brag about.
Cam,
Some months ago, Kerry spoke of how, in his usual “nuanced” manner, that Pope Pius XIII had stated that every Catholic can be guided by his conscience when it comes to moral law. The joke then was that there never was a Pius XIII. He, in his ignorance of the history of his faith, was probably thinking of John XXIII or Paul VI.
His statements on the freedom of Catholics to disagree with dogma is just plain heresey and nothing but.
By the way, Cam, that “whack job”of whom you spoke seems to be a schismatic and not a heretic.
“His statements on the freedom of Catholics to disagree with dogma is just plain heresey and nothing but.”
No it isn’t….one can say that it is scandal, one can say that it is promoting both voluntary and involuntary doubt, but it isn’t heresy.
And to be schismatic one must be heretical…..until dispensed by the Church. And Fr. Pulvemacher is a heretic. He is denying the true apostolic succession of St. Peter.
And I don’t disagree with the fact that Kerry may be ignorant, but to be ignorant ablsoves him of heresy. He must know what he is doing….that is why I offer Involuntary Doubt.
Cam
ing objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness. (CCC 2088)
“Maybe Pope Pius XIII would have a less judgemental view of him..”
If you are talking about that whack job (thanks Jaime) out in Montana, I doubt it. He is super conservative and a real heretic.
Cam
uthor_IP>70.19.159.231
2004-10-03 21:47:03
2004-10-04 01:47:03
probably because it started as a monastic order… hermits living on Mount Carmel… to emphasize that it is enclosed, where a convent is not necessarily cloistered.
comment>
17402
singogoddess@yahoo.com
70.19.159.231
2004-10-03 21:47:03
2004-10-04 01:47:03
probably because it started as a monastic order… hermits living on Mount Carmel… to emphasize that it is enclosed, where a convent is not necessarily cloistered.
Brian
I think you can remove the quotes on whack job. I’m trying to go out and find more information on Fr Pulvermacher but if what I’ve found is true ( and please folks post links) I would say the quotations are unnecessary.
Back to the original thread topic. While it is true that the Protestants do not prioritize the need to go to church, A LOT of them still go!!! And they do a great job of tithing enough to support and staff all sorts of ministries (sorry kelly for bringing up that word).
The fact that the President “consults a higher Father” (paraphrasing) but doesn’t go to church regularly bothers me.
And yes Kerry going to church every Sunday as a prochoice guy bothers me too.
I’m voting for Kelly Clark this election
Hey, Dominic, great comment. You are the FIRST Catholic in 20 years to have said something to me about Protestants that makes sense. Most Catholics have precisely zero-zip-no clue. The garbage that usually passes for legitimate comment about Protestants among Catholics is amazing, insulting and moronic. The old hate survives, at least on this side of the separation.
My grandfather was a Protestant minister, and I’m a convert so I know about Protestants. I used to be one, and a good one. That is not a reason to slander me and mine however.
Yes, Dom, what you say about Protestant church attendance is true. Protestants attend church for fellowship and for music and for joint scripture reading. They are not required to go, but they often do. A person in a situation like the presidency cannot simply walk into the local Baptist church on Sunday morning. So he doesn’t. To a Protestant, if he has a minister he can call or someone to pray with, it’s no big deal that he doesn’t.
Don’t like it folks, get over it. He’s a protestant and he’s allowed to play by Protestant rules.
On the other hand, Kerry may *attend* Mass but he’s not playing by the rules. He violates the most foundational requirements for a catholic—he advocates murder of a child by its own mother. That trumps anything else about him because it’s demonic. That’s only one of his areas of apostacy.
As Catholics, on Sunday morning, our doors are open to the street. Any bum can walk in and some do. We do not ask questions in the Holy Communion line. Many people receive without being properly disposed. It is not something to brag about.
Um, no one much is likely to comment on this but a Catholic, OR someone interested in swaying the Catholic vote.
And BTW, don’t worry—we give Protestants plenty to be scandalized about too.
Regardless of all our high talk, the average Catholic takes birth control, is divorced and perhaps remarried, doesn’t go to confession or show up at mass every week, yadda yadda, and everyone knows it. Catholic statistics for abortion, birth control and divorce are the same as for the general population but we have no problem lying about that. Morals among the rank-and-file stink and everyone knows it. Muslims are scared to death of going to hell over associations with us. Our posturing compared to our actual behavior causes seculars to ridicule us. They get away with it, because—you know what?—it doesn’t make any sense.
Catholics seem pretty confused at times about what exactly they believe in, besides hanging together as a “community.” Here, you can go out and beat drums at the moon on the autumn solstice with the nuns. That sort of thing is an outrage for believing understanding Protestants, of which there are many. They’re right about one thing—that’s NOT CHRISTIAN.
Our Masses, more often than not, sound like a catfight in progress. You, my Catholic friends, should hear the comments of Protestants who have witnessed it. Their music is often very fine in quality. Find me a decent organist and she’s probably a protestant getting paid to play. On the other hand, I’m convinced most Catholics couldn’t tell a fine organist from a calliope player anyway. Habituation to noise does that.
Our priests have to be watched with small children and collection baskets, etc…Do you think no one knows this?? Not after Boston.
And after all this, Catholics have the bazoombas to carry on with Protestants about not going to church.
Come on, get the plank out of your eye.
I’m Catholic rather than Protestant because I believe that the Catholic church is the one true church. But I’ll tell you, it’s been a trip, a big surprise, a battle being Catholic at times.
A lot of Catholics don’t know their own faith. A lot of Catholics just plain don’t care. A lot of Catholics have no problem denying what’s written right in front of their faces. It’s harder than heck to be a convert a lot of times.
Um, no one much is likely to comment on this but a Catholic, OR someone interested in swaying the Catholic vote.
And BTW, don’t worry—we give Protestants plenty to be scandalized about too.
Regardless of all our high talk, the average Catholic takes birth control, is divorced and perhaps remarried, doesn’t go to confession or show up at mass every week, yadda yadda, and everyone knows it. Catholic statistics for abortion, birth control and divorce are the same as for the general population but we have no problem lying about that. Morals among the rank-and-file stink and everyone knows it. Muslims are scared to death of going to hell over associations with us. Our posturing compared to our actual behavior causes seculars to ridicule us. They get away with it, because—you know what?—it doesn’t make any sense.
Catholics seem pretty confused at times about what exactly they believe in, besides hanging together as a “community.” Here, you can go out and beat drums at the moon on the autumn solstice with the nuns. That sort of thing is an outrage for believing understanding Protestants, of which there are many. They’re right about one thing—that’s NOT CHRISTIAN.
Our Masses, more often than not, sound like a catfight in progress. You, my Catholic friends, should hear the comments of Protestants who have witnessed it. Their music is often very fine in quality. Find me a decent organist and she’s probably a protestant getting paid to play. On the other hand, I’m convinced most Catholics couldn’t tell a fine organist from a calliope player anyway. Habituation to noise does that.
Our priests have to be watched with small children and collection baskets, etc…Do you think no one knows this?? Not after Boston.
And after all this, Catholics have the bazoombas to carry on with Protestants about not going to church.
Come on, get the plank out of your eye.
I’m Catholic rather than Protestant because I believe that the Catholic church is the one true church. But I’ll tell you, it’s been a trip, a big surprise, a battle being Catholic at times.
A lot of Catholics don’t know their own faith. A lot of Catholics just plain don’t care. A lot of Catholics have no problem denying what’s written right in front of their faces. It’s harder than heck to be a convert a lot of times.
“There is no obsinate, post-baptismal denial of anything…so John Kerry is not a heretic. He is guilty of Involuntary Doubt, but not heresy.” There’s a very good argument to be made that Kerry is in fact a heretic. De Fide.
“There is no obsinate, post-baptismal denial of anything…so John Kerry is not a heretic. He is guilty of Involuntary Doubt, but not heresy.” There’s a very good argument to be made that Kerry is in fact a heretic. De Fide.
“There is no obsinate, post-baptismal denial of anything…so John Kerry is not a heretic. He is guilty of Involuntary Doubt, but not heresy.” There’s a very good argument to be made that Kerry is in fact a heretic. De Fide.
FWIW, it has been said for two decades that Reagan never went to church. I believed it, until I started reading his own writings. He went faithfully to church his entire adult life—except when he was president. He did not want the president to be (1) a distraction during the service and (2) bring with him a safety risk to the congregation. (Amy Sullivan merely brushes these aside as “excuses”.) Reagan often invited a minister to hold a service in his residence in the White House. Before and after his presidency, though, he faithfully attended church on Sunday. I notice that Sullivan makes no mention of that, nor does she give any indication that she even inquired whether Bush attended church regularly before he was elected president. Since she herself is an editor, I think those are inexcusable oversights in her article.
FWIW, it has been said for two decades that Reagan never went to church. I believed it, until I started reading his own writings. He went faithfully to church his entire adult life—except when he was president. He did not want the president to be (1) a distraction during the service and (2) bring with him a safety risk to the congregation. (Amy Sullivan merely brushes these aside as “excuses”.) Reagan often invited a minister to hold a service in his residence in the White House. Before and after his presidency, though, he faithfully attended church on Sunday. I notice that Sullivan makes no mention of that, nor does she give any indication that she even inquired whether Bush attended church regularly before he was elected president. Since she herself is an editor, I think those are inexcusable oversights in her article.
FWIW, it has been said for two decades that Reagan never went to church. I believed it, until I started reading his own writings. He went faithfully to church his entire adult life—except when he was president. He did not want the president to be (1) a distraction during the service and (2) bring with him a safety risk to the congregation. (Amy Sullivan merely brushes these aside as “excuses”.) Reagan often invited a minister to hold a service in his residence in the White House. Before and after his presidency, though, he faithfully attended church on Sunday. I notice that Sullivan makes no mention of that, nor does she give any indication that she even inquired whether Bush attended church regularly before he was elected president. Since she herself is an editor, I think those are inexcusable oversights in her article.
She’s trying to manipulate a Catholic audience…that’s the problem.
Bush is a protestant. Reagan was a protestant. What Reagan did was fine, and his reasons are very good ones for a protestant president. There are no excuses there for a protestant.
She’s trying to manipulate a Catholic audience…that’s the problem.
Bush is a protestant. Reagan was a protestant. What Reagan did was fine, and his reasons are very good ones for a protestant president. There are no excuses there for a protestant.
She’s trying to manipulate a Catholic audience…that’s the problem.
Bush is a protestant. Reagan was a protestant. What Reagan did was fine, and his reasons are very good ones for a protestant president. There are no excuses there for a protestant.
ELC,
By definition he is not committing heresy. I read the article….doesn’t fly. I know Pete and I don’t agree with his assessment. I think that we have to look at “formal” cooperation versus “material.”
michigancatholic,
Man, have I missed you!!!
“The garbage that usually passes for legitimate comment about Protestants among Catholics is amazing, insulting and moronic.”
How about this….most Protestants are “material heretics.” They are moreso than John Kerry. Why? Because they participate in the heresies of sola scriptura and sola fide.
“My grandfather was a Protestant minister, and In’t pro-life either, from a Catholic perspective. He is just as pro-choice as John Kerry….go figure.
“And after all this, Catholics have the bazoombas to carry on with Protestants about not going to church.”
What are Protestants? They are Catholics (by fact of baptism) who refuse to assent to the Magisterium of the Church….We discussed this earlier (as a blogsite)….
Cam
ELC,
By definition he is not committing heresy. I read the article….doesn’t fly. I know Pete and I don’t agree with his assessment. I think that we have to look at “formal” cooperation versus “material.”
michigancatholic,
Man, have I missed you!!!
“The garbage that usually passes for legitimate comment about Protestants among Catholics is amazing, insulting and moronic.”
How about this….most Protestants are “material heretics.” They are moreso than John Kerry. Why? Because they participate in the heresies of sola scriptura and sola fide.
“My grandfather was a Protestant minister, and I4-10-04 20:24:04
Camster,
I don’t think Bush is as prochoice as Kerry.
Is he prochoice? Yes. But there are some significant shades of grey here!
Cam, now that you’re in this and I’ve made my point, I’m leaving. I choose not to talk to you, and I havent’ missed you either. My point about Catholics being insulting and ignorant about protestants stands, and you are living proof, sweetie. Bye.
Camster,
I don’t think Bush is as prochoice as Kerry.
Is he prochoice? Yes. But there are some significant shades of grey here!
Let’s play a fun game…..
Slam the Church….expect everyone to just fawn and accept that what I say is truth…and let it be.
Nah, not gonna let that one go….when ANYONE (this would include the Holy Father, if he were to do this) I am going to respond.
“Regardless of all our high talk, the average Catholic takes birth control, is divorced and perhaps remarried, doesn process, but the data they’ve provided only relates to the criteria they’ve defined,” said Steve Krueger, the organization’s executive director.
Krueger called for a public release of parish financial resources, proximity to other parishes, and parish outreach programs that could be harmed by church closings. He said the pace of the process, which requires cluster recommendations by March 8, is too rapid for meaningful lay input.
…
According to the Globe’s analysis of the new numbers, looking only at those parishes reporting attendance in 2000 and 2003, about 19 percent of Catholics attended Mass in October 2000 and about 16 percent in October 2003.
The archdiocese has not publicly released the 2000 numbers, but the Globe obtained them from a church source. Comparable head counts for other dioceses nationwide were not available.
Globe correspondent Bill Dedman contributed to this report. Michael Paulson can be reached at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) For statistics by parish, see [url=http://www.rcab.org.”]http://www.rcab.org.”[/url]
Cam,
You didn’t address the issue of PiusXXXIII in regard to Kerry. As you know, Kerry did not reference the “whack job” in his statement. He reference post concilliar popes to justify his break with Catholic Dogma.
You brought up the point that protestants are material heretics……….for once you are right.
“He, in his ignorance of the history of his faith, was probably thinking of John XXIII or Paul VI.”
“You didnistics by parish, see [url=http://www.rcab.org.”]http://www.rcab.org.”[/url]
Camilan asked:
“Hey Alfredo…..
Where are you getting your numbers from???? …
As far as annulments are concerned: 1 out of 10. That is from Jimmy Akin. And that is hardly 90-95%.”
I think I said that I read that an overwhelming majority (something like 90 or 95 percent) of those who apply for the annulment are granted it. Here I was speaking of annulments applied for in the USA. I recall reading this from different sources, although some sources give about 85%. For the 95% figure, you might want to look at the article in the April 1997 US Catholic magazine: “Annulments…” by Bob Zyskowski. on page 7, it says: “The St. Paul Minneapolis marriage tribunal renders about 550 decisions a year. Only about 15 of those decisions deny the annulment.” In other words, of those who apply, the rate of approval is 535/550 or 97 percent.
Camilan asked:
“Hey Alfredo…..
Where are you getting your numbers from???? …
As far as annulments are concerned: 1 out of 10. That is from Jimmy Akin. And that is hardly 90-95%.”
I think I said that I read that an overwhelming majority (something like 90 or 95 percent) of those who apply for the annulment are granted it. Here I was speaking of annulments applied for in the USA. I recall reading this from different sources, although some sources give about 85%. For the 95% figure, you might want to look at the article in the April 1997 US Catholic magazine: “Annulments…” by Bob Zyskowski. on page 7, it says: “The St. Paul Minneapolis marriage tribunal renders about 550 decisions a year. Only about 15 of those decisions deny the annulment.” In other words, of those who apply, the rate of approval is 535/550 or 97 percent.
WASHINGTON, July 2 /U.S. Newswire/—Catholic voters are aligned with the rest of the nation on the issue of abortion. The majority of Catholic voters are more likely to call themselves “prochoice” (53 percent) than “prolife” (45 percent) on abortion, and a preponderance believe abortion should be legal (61 percent). Four in ten Catholic voters (38 percent) “strongly” or “somewhat” disagree that abortion should be legal, and more Catholic voters feel “strongly” in favor of legal abortion (33 percent) than opposed (22 percent).
WASHINGTON, July 2 /U.S. Newswire/—Catholic voters are aligned with the rest of the nation on the issue of abortion. The majority of Catholic voters are more likely to call themselves “prochoice” (53 percent) than “prolife” (45 percent) on abortion, and a preponderance believe abortion should be legal (61 percent). Four in ten Catholic voters (38 percent) “strongly” or “somewhat” disagree that abortion should be legal, and more Catholic voters feel “strongly” in favor of legal abortion (33 percent) than opposed (22 percent).
With reference to the percentage of Catholics who agree with the Church’s position on abortion, I read that at the Catholic college, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts, about 10% of the students agree fully with the position of the Church on abortion, while the other 89% disagree with some point or other of the Church’s teaching on abortion. These are students at a Catholic college. The results broke down as:
1. By law, abortion should never be permitted
10%
2. The law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest, or when the woman’s life is in danger
33%
3. The law should permit abortion for reasons other than raped, incest, or danger to the woman’s life, but only after the need for abortion has been clearly established
21%
4. By law, a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice
35%
No answer or no opinion
1%
Results taken from:
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/socant/rsinglet/sp04majf.htm
With reference to the percentage of Catholics who agree with the Church’s position on abortion, I read that at the Catholic college, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts, about 10% of the students agree fully with the position of the Church on abortion, while the other 89% disagree with some point or other of the Church’s teaching on abortion. These are students at a Catholic college. The results broke down as:
1. By law, abortion should never be permitted
10%
2. The law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest, or when the woman’s life is in danger
33%
3. The law should permit abortion for reasons other than raped, incest, or danger to the woman’s life, but only after the need for abortion has been clearly established
21%
4. By law, a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice
35%
No answer or no opinion
1%
Results taken from:
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/socant/rsinglet/sp04majf.htm
With reference to the percentage of Catholics who agree with the Church’s position on abortion, I read that at the Catholic college, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts, about 10% of the students agree fully with the position of the Church on abortion, while the other 89% disagree with some point or other of the Church’s teaching on abortion. These are students at a Catholic college. The results broke down as:
1. By law, abortion should never be permitted
10%
2. The law should permit abortion only in case of rape, incest, or when the woman’s life is in danger
33%
3. The law should permit abortion for reasons other than raped, incest, or danger to the woman’s life, but only after the need for abortion has been clearly established
21%
4. By law, a woman should always be able to obtain an abortion as a matter of personal choice
35%
No answer or no opinion
1%
Results taken from:
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/socant/rsinglet/sp04majf.htm
Gee guys and michigancatholic,
Thanks for the stats.
“About one in six Catholics in the Archdiocese of Boston attends Mass during any given week…”
“The St. Paul Minneapolis marriage tribunal renders about 550 decisions a year.”
“I read that at the Catholic college, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts, about 10% of the students agree fully with the position of the Church on abortion, while the other 89% disagree with some point or other of the Churchsh grandmother will tell you, there_IP>
2004-10-02 11:04:03
2004-10-02 15:04:03
So, given that we used to drink tea by the gallon back in Ireland, we should have been scandalously healthy thenbut there’s only one Cup of Life and we partake of that at Mass.
But I’ll still start drinking more tea.
]]>Gee guys and michigancatholic,
Thanks for the stats.
“About one in six Catholics in the Archdiocese of Boston attends Mass during any given week…”
“The St. Paul Minneapolis marriage tribunal renders about 550 decisions a year.”
“I read that at the Catholic college, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts, about 10% of the students agree fully with the position of the Church on abortion, while the other 89% disagree with some point or other of the Churchistians (and other Protestants), actual church attendance is low on their list of priorities.”
This is the problem of the heresies of sola scriptura and sola fide. Private Revelation is no longer available, that died with the death of the last apostle donauses seculars to ridicule us. They get away with it, because—you know what?—it doesn’t make any sense.
Catholics seem pretty confused at times about what exactly they believe in, besides hanging together as a “community.” Here, you can go out and beat drums at the moon on the autumn solstice with the nuns. That sort of thing is an outrage for believing understanding Protestants, of which there are many. They’re right about one thing—that’s NOT CHRISTIAN.
Our Masses, more often than not, sound like a catfight in progress. You, my Catholic friends, should hear the comments of Protestants who have witnessed it. Their music is often very fine in quality. Find me a decent organist and she’s probably a protestant getting paid to play. On the other hand, I’m convinced most Catholics couldn’t tell a fine organist from a calliope player anyway. Habituation to noise does that.
Our priests have to be watched with small children and collection baskets, etc…Do you think no one knows this?? Not after Boston.
And after all this, Catholics have the bazoombas to carry on with Protestants about not going to church.
Come on, get the plank out of your eye.
I’m Catholic rather than Protestant because I believe that the Catholic church is the one true church. But I’ll tell you, it’s been a trip, a big surprise, a battle being Catholic at times.
A lot of Catholics don’t know their own faith. A lot of Catholics just plain don’t care. A lot of Catholics have no problem denying what’s written right in front of their faces. It’s harder than heck to be a convert a lot of times.
Gee guys and michigancatholic,
Thanks for the stats.
“About one in six Catholics in the Archdiocese of Boston attends Mass during any given week…”
“The St. Paul Minneapolis marriage tribunal renders about 550 decisions a year.”
“I read that at the Catholic college, Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts, about 10% of the students agree fully with the position of the Church on abortion, while the other 89% disagree with some point or other of the ChurchTA[
I wouldn’t call Kerry a hypocrite, I would call him a heretic.
Maybe Pope Pius XIII would have a less judgemental view of him…..