Conviction!

Conviction!

Diogenes follows up on a case I was looking into when it first broke. Long story short (although you can get more of it at the link above): A convicted child molester was released from a hospital for the sexually dangerous by his therapist, a priest who allegedly had a sexual relationship with the convict. The molester, Paul Nolin, was introduced by that priest to a Cape Cod pastor who gave him work at his parish and commenced a sexual relationship with him, while Nolin lived in an apartment rented from the first priest. Eventually, Nolin kidnapped, raped, and murdered a 20-year-old man, the crime for which he was convicted this week. (You have to read the details at the link above to get a full idea of the crime.)

So what lessons have we learned? (A) Homosexuality is a completely healthy lifestyle that has nothing to do with deviancy. (B) Treatment centers cure their sexually deranged patients. (C) There is nothing wrong with having homosexuals in the priesthood. (D) There is no connection between how a priest celebrates his liturgies and his personal sanctity.

Yeah, and if you believe all that I have a good deal on a nice bridge in Brooklyn.

Written by
Domenico Bettinelli
38 comments
  • Dear KeepStAsOpen,

    Where are the people presently attending Sunday Mass?

    God Bless,

    Isabel

  • Dom,

    I wonder who you are trying to bring into this discussion…..hmmmmm?????

    “I offered the reflection on the Scripture in conjunction with an earlier discussion on Canon 212 (I think; I don who seems unable to do anything about the increasing waywardness (both theological and moral) of the bishops he appointed? We can’t just fly to Rome and ask for an audience, especially given his current physical condition.

    No, Cam, public outrage may be the only method to move bishops who have been so entrenched in their positions that they’ve become isolated to the legitimate complaints of those whom they claim to serve.

    Moreover, the mere fact that they’ve been so isolated is an indictment of a bureaucratic, hierarchical command system that’s a holdover from Imperial Roman times, and that too often has served the interests of its members rather than the interests of the faithful.

  • Isabel,

    I am not in Weymouth right now unfortunately. I am away at college. My family is begrudgingly going to Immaculate Conception. It is not home they say however. They are just biding their time, attending the vigil and praying that we can have our home back.

    Never Say Die.

  • Joseph,

    “I think you are making a simple issue unnecessarily complex.”

    Nope, I am not.  This is a complex issue.  This isn’t a black and white issue.  This is something that needs discernment and thoughtful reflection.

    “….public outrage may be the only method to move bishops who have been so entrenched in their positions that theyndance or financially shut down? What is your reasoning?

    Never Say Die

  • KeepStAsOpen,

    “Anyone who believes differently is a propaganda artist and a lowly follower of one of the most historically corrupt institutions in the history of man.”

    Ya know, I have heard talk like this before.  Here are the quotes that I refer to.

    ““The corruption of the Holy Mass has brought with it the corruption of the priesthood and the universal decadence of faith in the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ”, accompanied by the resolute intention, clearly shown by the Roman authorities, to continue with “their work of destroying the reign of Our Lord, as proved by Assisi, and by Rome’s confirmation of the liberal theses of Vatican II on religious liberty”.”

    “Beneath a show of apparent unity, the Church is being tom apart; a special effort is being made to tear out its soul, its spiritual treasure, that which distinguishes it from all other religions and a1l other societies: its supernatural truth, its deposit, the deposit of Revelation, of which it is the one and only guardian, its charity, grace, the sacrifice, the priesthood.”

    Those comments were made by Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior general of the SSPX.  In case you are not familiar, they are a schismatic group that refuses to assent to the will of Holy Mother Church.

    I am not saying that you are schismatic, but I am saying that you statements remind me of their premise.  They are disobedient under the charade of being faithful to the true Spirit of the Church.

    I might remind you, the true Spirit of the Church lies with the Pontiff and his bishops….

    With that being said, I am sorry that you are feeling the loss of your parish, but you should be able to find solace in the Blessed Sacrament.  You can find the Blessed Sacrament at any Catholic Church….The Church is more than the sum of it’s parts….it is the universal acceptance of all of it’s members.  You will be welcomed at any Church you go to, of that I am sure.

    Cam

  • It’s not my reasoning, but Archbishop O’Malley’s from when he first announced the closings. JPW outlined it very clearly in the other thread.

    I quote:
    There are five parishes in Weymouth, including St. Albertam.blogspot.com/
    64.136.27.14
    2004-10-07 12:02:51
    2004-10-07 16:02:51
    I’d suggest that there is a bit more than demographics at play here. Since the 1960s the Catholic Church in the US has been on a steep decline. A recent book called the “Index of Leading Indicators” (or something like that) indicates the scope of the problem.

    25% of all parishes are closing in Boston…they are not opening elsewhere in the Diocese or in New England.

    We all know the stats: Mass attendance, divorce, abortion, vocations (marriage & holy orders), pathetic catechiesis.)

    On opposing a Bishop to his face: perhaps the rule of thumb is to do it with respect whether privately or publicly.

    St. Benedict: “Bear patiently the wrongs done to one’s self by others.”

    “When addressing a man of high station, do so with respect.”

    I’d be interested to know from a historical perspective how the laity handled the Arian heresy during the 4th Century. I heard that this heresy had infected a great many Bishops but the laity were largely resistant to it. That may work as a guide for laity who feel wronged by their shepherd.

    KeepStAsOPen: consider the mothers whose sons were raped by priests and bishops who still atend the Mass and their private devotions, St. John of the Cross and St. Frances de Sales were both persecuted by evil Bishops (not to say B. O’Malley is one of these), St Padre Pio was forbidden to say Mass and hear confessions for long spells, consider the whole generation who had the 400 year old Tridentine Mass ripped from their lives only to be replaced with hippy-dippy guitar playing.

    If you are truly suffering then you are on the right path. If you have attained comfort by and success in this world WATCH OUT!!

  • Those demos aren’t completely accurate Tom. There are parishes opening in Boston and in New England, just not at the same rate others are closing. Of course, you could say that we’re just catching up with all the parishes that should have been closed years ago as populations shifted further away from the city.

    Also, the US Census also shows a population shift away from New England south and west overall, so it’s not surprising we’d have a population loss.

  • Cam, you say that just because individual members of a class or group act in a certain fashion doesn’t mean they all act in that fashion.

    I take it you haven’t been following the clerical abuse crisis. Victims have made legitimate accusations of enabling sexual predators against a variety of bishops: Law, Mahony, O’Brien, McCormack, Weakland and Moreno to name just a few in this country (not to mention those in Australia, Austria, Ireland, Poland, Latin America and the UK).

    Sorry, Cam, but your claims of faulty reasoning fall flat in the face of that large a sample. You also have to explain how a Pope (who is a product of this system of hierarchical governance) has so flaccidly dealt with the greatest threat to the Church’s moral credibility since pre-Reformation times.

    Besides, you have no idea about human nature in a group setting. Protecting the group at all costs is the motivating factor for many in authority. Why do you think the clerical abuse scandal has such legs? Moreover, why do you think bishops could move predators around with impunity? Because they could, because nobody could effectively hold them accountable, not even the Pope!

    You talk about scandal. Who’s really responsible for scandal, the faithful who call attention to a decrepid hierarchy or the isolated hierarchy who perpetuates the scandal in the first place?

    Cam, I suggest you read Ezekiel and Jeremiah, particularly Jer. 23: 9-40. See how God thinks about those who misuse power in institutions that He directly created!

  • Joseph,

    “I take it you havenmanifest by the Holy Spirit that guides me…not simply a couple of OT scriptures, which have been fulfilled in the blood of Christ.

    Joseph, I suggest that you read CCC 545.  I also suggest that you read CCC 2100.  Then reread your passage from Jeremiah in that light.  You’ll see that it is mercy that God wants…it is mercy that God desires….it is mercy that expects from all of us….Christ wills it.

    Cam

  • um……YIKES!!!!! I know that comment contributes nothing to the thread but for the love of God…….this is downright ridiculous. I think you need to add…(E) the bishops are our “shepherds”, watching out for Christ’s flock here on earth……well maybe “watching” is the operative word here.

  • I just got a sec to check out this thread and I don’t have time to answer everything right now. Quickly though…

    JPW, I respectfully disagree with you when you say the church wasn’t bursting at the seams. Ask anyone who had been there in the past 2 years, that is precisely what was happening at every mass.

    Trust me please.

    Never Say Die

  • I think it’s pretty important to remember that Keep is a college student, away from home, and that he believes that his (I say this for convenience—Keep may be a young lady but I’m not going to get into the “he or she” stuff) faith has been fairly recently “brought to life.”

    Keep is therefore getting much of his information from his parents, (who, thank God and thanks to Isabel for asking) are attending Sunday Mass at Immaculate Conception; from the press; from the former parish’s ringleaders, and, perhaps from his former pastor.

    Okay. Keep writes:

    JPW, I respectfully disagree with you when you say the church wasnat least trying.

    When you correspond or speak with your folks, I hope all the “church-related” discussion isn’t focused on Saint Albert’s.

    Because it doesn’t have to be! You and your parents, for example, can compare homilies you heard on Sunday (I’m assuming you’ve found a Catholic church or chapel for Sunday Mass at college). That’s just for openers. There are so many riches to be found in Sunday and Holy Day liturgies, no matter where you are.

    You’ve been handed a crummy deal but also, I think, a terrific opportunity. Your parents now worship in a parish you are not familiar with. You worship, or certainly can worship, in a place unfamiliar to them. And yet, you’re hearing the same Word of God, and adoring the same Trinity! Wouldn’t it be great if, when you and your folks correspond or talk, you can focus, not so much on how “bad” other people are, but how good God is?

    A church building “bursting at the seams” doesn’t necessarily mean much. Evangelical revival tents can “out burst” most Catholic church buildings any day of the week.

    What’s important isn’t in crowd estimates. We’re not talking about whether or not to remodel Fenway Park here.

    We’re really not talking about a building in Weymouth, either.

    We’re talking about the ultimate sacrifice Jesus made for us. He asked us to let Him keep on offering it, Sunday after Sunday.

    Can’t we try to do that?

  • KeepStAsOpen,

    JPW has a point.  I just looked at the numbers for the Weymouth Vicariate.  St. Albert’s numbers were the worst.  If we start ratio-ing the numbers we can clearly see that your former parish is the least vibrant.

    It would stand to reason that if a parish were to close it would be that one.  There is more to the life of a parish than attending Mass.  According to the stats, there were twice as many people dying out of the parish as being baptized in last year.  Also, your parish’s first Holy Communion rate was HALF that of a parish half your size.  That doesn’t say much for a vibrant parish alive in the faith.  And for a vibrant parish, where 1222 people attend Mass on a regular basis only 21 were confirmed and 18 married?  Heck, Jaime and I aren’t married, with those odds, I think even we could get a date.  LOL!!

    The only parish that is statistically worse than yours had twice as many first Holy Communions????  But then again they are 1/4 smaller than your parish, hmmmm.  This isn’t saying much to help your defense, other than sentimentality.

    So…is it smart business to cluster?  I think so.  I grew up in a rural diocese that went through it in the late-eighties and early nineties….It is one of the best things that has happened….the diocese is in better financial shape and the burden on the priests is much more manageable.

    Sure there are drawbacks, such as the smaller towns don’t necessarily have a resident priest, but they are outweighed by the good, such as several Catholic schools gaining students….and the best thing, the faithful will adapt.  That is one of the great things about the human spirit.  Adaptability.

    Cam

  • Informative and well written article but this has been bugging me for a long time:

    Who is “Diogenes?”

    (Please don’t let this question make you “feel” that Kelly Is Not A Good Catholic.)

    No kidding, if anybody knows who “Diogenes” is, I’d appreciate knowing.

    Of course if this is a “secret” then far be it from me to intrude.

    Still I wonder who “Diogenes” (the columnist—not the cynical philosopher from eons ago) is.

    (As a rule, I really despise nom de plumes.)

  • Joseph: d numbers do mean something, they are an indicator of where the parish will be in the future. If there are not enough weddings and baptisms, it means the population is declining. Maybe the church is full now, but if there are not enough young families taking the place of the old people who are dying, then can you see why there will eventually be a problem? The bishops have to look not only at the now, but at the future and the past. They have to see the bigger picture. And it doesn’t mean they don’t care about you or your pain. And it certainly doesn’t mean anyone hates you.

    But every parish is special to those who belong. And the amazing thing about the Church is we are ONE BODY. I moved to MA from Texas four years ago. I miss my home parish. If it were to be closed I would grieve. But I have found a new home (at Immaculate Conception in Salem).

    I have had the benefit of travel, have been to Europe, to St Peter’s in Rome. And one thing you find when you travel is that one of the greatest gifts to us as Catholics is that home is also anywhere you go. I have been to Mass with thousands of others in St Peter’s square, people praying in dozens of languages. This is the Church that the people here have experienced. The Church universal. I’m willing to bet you have had much more limited experience of the Church. (Please correct me if I’m wrong) Maybe you have really only experienced that sense of belonging at St A’s. But please trust me you will find it other places.

    No one here questions whether St A’s was a place that nurtured your faith. That’s what the Church is, Our Mother.

    But we are challenging you to see that that isn’t completely lost. We are all one family, and like a family we have misunderstandings. And the internet is a hard place to try to work out our problems. This would be a much different conversation, I am convinced, if we could all see each other face to face and correct misunderstandings as they arise. If you mis-read any of these words, then I will have no idea where I went wrong. (As an English teacher I am painfully aware that the written language is a fragile thing and communication is difficult.)

    If you are sensing hate from these posts and are feeling misunderstood, try to blame the impersonal medium and not the people who I believe do have good intentions. We want to ease your pain by helping you to understand our perspectives. Of course you are grieving, you are right to grieve. And I sympathize with the urge to fight for what you love. but there is more to love about being Catholic than any single parish can contain. As you grow and learn more about our faith and more about the history of our Church, I hope you will understand more clearly why these difficult decisions have to be made.

    I admire your passionate conviction and hope you will discover that we are more than a collection of individual parishes.

    Pray to Our Lady who suffered with her Son at the foot of the cross that she will help us through this difficult time in history. She knows the Church has gone through other hard times, but that it is filled with the Spirit and will not die.

    Melanie

  • Pssst Cam

    You’re arguing with a guy that wants to shoot all the bishops.  S-H-O-O-T. 

    KeepStAsOpen

    I can’t speak for everybody around here but I don’t think anybody hates you or the folks at (formerly) St Alberts.  I think its great that the community means so much to you and to the rest of (formerly) St Alberts.  You’re absolutely right in the fact that stats have no bearing on community.  It doesn’t matter if you have one baptism or fifty if there is a strong bond among parishioners. 

    If we continue to work on our faith, there is always one lesson that our faith will eventually teach us, humility.  (Granted if you come back here on a regular basis, you may notice a few folks who haven’t picked up on that lesson yet).  But lousy things happen that are out of our control.  We get conked on the head with that reality every so often.  And while it is right and just that you and your family is upset with the closing, the actions taken by the parishioners is neither right or just. 

    The passion that your community has given you is yours now.  (this is important) I hope and pray that you realize that while your home parish can be taken away, that passion can’t.  It can only be given away.  Syracuse is a great place.  I hope you find more folks to find community.  Now, if you choose to, you can help empower others to take ownership of their faith. 

    Heck, Jaime and I arenathered in her life?  How many?  I daresay more than you can count.  While they are sad, they pass.  This will too.

    See, your big mistake is that I put my faith in the men.  I put my faith in the office those men hold.  Wait, let me say this again, as to be perfectly clear to you.  I put my faith in the office those men hold.  Once more, I put my faith in the office that those men hold.

    I don’t have any fantasies of church leadership.  I understand the reality, actually better than you.  You attribute this scandal to all the heirarchy and that simply is not the case.  It is the sins of the few affecting many.  As I have said, I will defend the office.  I will also tell you until the day that I die, there are many, many more faithful bishops and priests than depraved ones.

    Throughout your readings of the NT, you seem to have missed the central focus of mercy.  You have also missed another central focus that the OT is fulfilled in the blood of Christ.

    Sir, I can assure you that I am very familiar with Jonathan Swift.  I am not a fan, I find him to be very dry and somewhat boring, but I am familiar with him. 

    “A Modest Proposal” is way too harsh for what is going on here.  If you want to equate bishops with the Irish, that is fine, but it will only confirm my assertation that you are a lunatic. LUUUNNNAAATTIICCC!!!!  Kinda like Mr. Swift himself who was what?  Insane!!!

    At any rate, he wasn’t even a good philosopher.  His ideas were that of what???  LUNACY!!!!!  Not my thoughts, although I don’t disagree.

    BTW, “Gulliver’s Travels” was the best of his work, but you can see that through the conversations with Antiquity, he really wasn’t that great at philosopy.

    Finally, if you are calling “no joy” with the Church, I have a great idea.  LEAVE.  Why continue to support an organization of leadership that “is decrepid and worthy of nothing better than being killed?”

    “I assure you, Cam, they will wish they wouldve been better made using Teresa of Avila as an example, but that’s just my opinion.

    #3. It could be that both these saints are stellar witnesses to the fact that the Church has always been in one scandal or another.

    Catherine of Siena, albeit a bishop basher, actually put a great deal of her energy into DEFENDING the true papacy.

    In any case, read up, if you’d like, on these two Doctors of the Church (both of whom were canonized by—uh—popes.)

    These are among the best mini-bios I found:

    Saint Catherine of Siena:

    http://www.op.org/domcentral/trad/stcather.htm

    Saint Teresa of Avila:

    http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=208

  • 2004-10-06 18:17:45
    2004-10-06 22:17:45
    I don’t know if i followed that but I believe it strengthens my point. The people at St. Albert’s believe that the archbishop made a mistake and instead of just following like slaves to the archdiocese, we are standing up for what is right.

    Never Say Die

  • Cam, you and Jamie are truly amazing. You complain that I presume and assume when I claim that you value the institution more than the Founder of the institution. Yet aren’t you doing the same thing when you describe me as a “lunatic”? Do you have a degree in psychology as well as in theology? If so, where do you practice?

    You know that my comments about you come from my interpretations of what you’ve said on this thread. That’s the only thing I’ve read that you’ve written. By the same token, your opinion of my “lunacy” comes from the same process. What’s sauce for the goose…

    I have yet to see you show any genuine compassion for the victims of any church-related or church-initiated scandal on this thread. Instead, you seem preoccupied with a de facto defense of the most malfeasant bishops by suggesting that “fraternal correction” by laity should be done in private (which such bishops are likely to ignore, given human nature), and by denying that a hierarchical system that effectively isolates bishops and encourages their arrogance by not holding them effectively accountable has anything to do with the clerical abuse crisis.

    That’s not “presumption.” That’s a logical conclusion based on the evidence (your responses on this thread). It’s a more logical deduction than yours about my “lunacy.”

  • Kelly,

    Didn’t you know???? As well as being an apparently awful apologist, for which I am certain, he won’t apologize….is a world renowned “squirrel exorcist,” of the same renown as Rev. Gabriel Amoroth.

    Hey, I forgot about St. Catherine of Siena encouraging a pope….now that is a twist isn’t it….an an Avignon pope at that!!!!

    Hey Kelly,  thanks for patronizing Catholic Online.  Fr. Zuhlsdorf is a good friend of mine and one who also calls Msgr. Richard Schuler, mentor.  The article on St. Theresa is a good one too.

    And I agree with you about point #2.  I can take something away from St. Theresa of Avila….I should strive to pray more.  I don’t do that well enough….thanks for the wake up call.

    Cam

  • Cam, you and Jamie are truly amazing. You complain that I presume and assume when I claim that you value the institution more than the Founder of the institution. Yet arenbecause he won’t “impose” his religious beliefs on anyone else, I take less seriously anything he says about his faith. 

    You twist scripture to justify your own warped, self righteous view.  You share that quality with a lot of folks.  The KKK, David Koresh, Army of God, just to name a few.  If you get your jollies shooting off inflammatory rhetoric, you might want to find another hobby.  Otherwise this is the company you keep.

  • Dang just when I get a good rant going.. half of it disappears!

    Ok lets see if I can remember the first part

    Cam, you and Jamie are truly amazing…… Do you have a degree in psychology as well as in theology?

    First off its Jaime J-a-i-m-e (Doug never got this either) Not a big deal except there is a Jamie that posts on this site.  Second, I while I don’t practice, I do have a graduate degree in psychology.  And I would love to interpret the scales of your MMPI.  (note: I realize one can claim anything on the internet, but I do have a my DSM-IV by my side in case you want to quiz me about the criteria of particular dysfunctions and how to assess them) 

    You say that we have yet to show compassion to the victims.  Well how in the world does shooting all the bishops help the victims to heal?  Is this how you define compassion?  I said it before, that kind of crazy a** statement does nothing to help.  It only makes things worse!!

  • Cam, do you believe that God is sovereign? If so, then where do you think sovereignty comes from? Can any being be sovereign without being free? When God made us in His image, that includes freedom to choose. When Moses gave his “farewell address” in Deuteronomy, he told the Israelites, “I have set before you life and death, good and evil. Choose life and good.” Now, how could he say that if the Israelites (indeed, all people) did not have the capacity to make free moral choices?

    Now, God could have created humanity without such freedom. However, we would have been nothing but flowers and plants, and flowers and plants aren’t created in His image.

    Sorry, Cam, but when you say God doesn’t allow evil, you live in a dream world. You then have to explain the existance of individual sin (let alone the Holocaust, 9/11, etc.). Do you know how I know that God allows evil? Because he allows a Hell to exist for the evil and unrepentant as a consequence of their actions, and a Purgatory for the repentant to be purged for venial sins!

    As far as the Protestant Reformers go, one doesn’t have to be Protestant to recognize bravery in action. Anybody opposing a corrupt authority is brave (cf, More, Erasmus, Catherine of Siena) because people have a tendency to follow the crowd, to be sheep. That bravery is not a comment on the Reformers’ theology; it’s a comment on the pervasive corruption w/in 16th-century Catholicism—corruption which was a historical fact.

    Finally, I don’t “hate” mercy and “repentance.” I despise people who are so focused on “mercy” and “repentance” for the unrepentant perpetrators of evil that they ignore the legitimate claims of those perpetrators’ victims—which you, Cam and Jaime, are doing when you hide your moral apathy and flaccidity behind the NT or loyalty to the institutional Church, and when you spend all your time in tag-team attacks against me rather than on confronting the serious problems of episcopal accountability within this Church.

  • Jaime, one more thing:

    You say that “shooting all the bishops” won’t help the victims to heal. I admit that what I said about “shooting the bishops” was said in anger.

    But consider the following: God requires murderers to be executed, despite au courant thinking on this issue. How many survivors of murder vicitms have felt a sense of relief and closure once the perpetrator has been executed? Quite a few, I can tell you.

    Now, I’m not equating child molesters or their episcopal enablers with murderers. But many victims and their families have found relief when such men have received the appropriate punishment (which is not execution, btw).

    Regardless, God will deal with these molesters and enablers far more seriously than any human could imagine. If you don’t believe that, Jaime, than you don’t believe that God is the Source of justice and righteousness, as well as of mercy.

  • Cam, something else came to mind…

    Have you ever considered the possibility that More was canonized to spit in English Protestantism’s face (despite More’s criticisms of the Chruch) and that Erasmus wasn’t canonized because he told truths that were too difficult to bear?

  • Joseph

    I admit that what I said about p;

    God deals with the unrepentant in his own time.  (This will probably tick you off) The Church has been a reflection of that as well.  There is not one decision made by the Church that was made quickly.  Not one that didn’t take sometimes hundreds of years to make. 

    I give thanks to God daily for not having to decide who my friends marry or who has to go to hell.  I honestly wouldn’t have time for anything else.  Honestly I’m surprised that others have so much free time.

  • Joseph,

    Your whole idea of God allowing evil is way too simplistic…not to mention you are misunderstanding the idea of evil.

    There are varying kinds of evil.  This is deep, see if you can keep up…“Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause.”

    Following so far…God is not the cause of evil.  My point from earlier.

    Now, the order of the universe requires, that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. (ie humans)  Nevertheless the order of justice belongs to the order of the universe; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so God is the author of the evil which is penalty, but not of the evil which is fault, by reason of what is said above.

    Ok, so we can see something important here…are you seeing it yet???

    The effect of the deficient secondary cause is reduced to the first non-deficient cause as regards what it has of being and perfection, but not as regards what it has of defect; just as whatever there is of motion in the act of limping is caused by the motive power, whereas what there is of obliqueness in it does not come from the motive power, but from the curvature of the leg. And, likewise, whatever there is of being and action in a bad action, is reduced to God as the cause; whereas whatever defect is in it is not caused by God, but by the deficient secondary cause.

    So, here we can see that God isn’t the cause of evil as you see it…the formal participation…nor does He allow it.  It is done outside of Himself, in otherwords, in spite of God.  That is sin, and he doesn’t allow it.  It happens in spite of him. 

    The evil that is attributed to God is accidental.  It is a by product of a good.  What you are speaking of as evil is defecient of good.

    What is the most simple definition of God, goodness.  So, God doesn’t allow evil…Evil is done in spite of Him.  He doesn’t author it nor does he allow it…it is done in disobedience of his redemptive love.

    Evil has a deficient cause in voluntary things otherwise than in natural things. For the natural agent produces the same kind of effect as it is itself, unless it is impeded by some exterior thing; and this amounts to some defect belonging to it. Hence evil never follows in the effect, unless some other evil pre-exists in the agent or in the matter, as was said above. But in voluntary things the defect of the action comes from the will actually deficient, inasmuch as it does not actually subject itself to its proper rule. This defect, however, is not a fault, but fault follows upon it from the fact that the will acts with this defect.

    So, my ultimate point…God doesn’t allow Evil…just as a parent doesn’t allow a child to disobey.  It is done in spite of better judgment.

    And your understanding of evil is way too simplistic.  You attribute all evil to one thing…it simply is not the case.  For just as water is evil to fire….sin is evil to God.  It is not allowed, but nevertheless it happens.

    “Have you ever considered the possibility that More was canonized to spit in English Protestantism#8220;If a man is a danger to the community, threatening it with disintegration by some wrongdoing of his, then his execution for the healing and
    preservation of the common good is to be commended. Only the public authority,
    not private persons, may licitly execute malefactors by public judgement. Men
    shall be sentenced to death for crimes of irreparable harm or which are
    particularly perverted.” (Summa Theologica 11: 65-2; 66-6).

    More from Aquinas on how capital punishment is ultimately good for the
    condemned:

    “…the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner, if he be converted, unto the expiation of his crime; and, if he be not converted, it profits so as to put an end to the sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin anymore. (Summa Theologica II-II, 25, 6 ad 2)”

  • Cam, two more points for you:

    1. Of course More was a martyr; he was a martyr specifically because of Henry VIII’s Protestantism. Assuming that More’s relatively quick canonization had nothing to do with a political agenda is truly naive.

    Many canonizations are supported by people with agendas, political and otherwise (cf, Pius IX, Pius XII and John XXIII). Just look at the recent beatification of Karl I, an obscure Austro-Hungarian monarch. Why would anybody support his canonization and why would Rome be so willing to consider it? For one thing, Karl I represents the ultimate political leader in Rome’s view: a monarchist who believes in a Christian commonwealth and acts “in the common good” (whatever that vague phrase means). If that’s not pushing a geopolitical agenda (especially considering JPII’s heated lobbying of the EU to get it to recognize Christianity in the Euro Constitution), then I don’t know what is.

    2. Regarding your mini-treatise on logic in your last post: From what textbook did you plagarize that gobbledygook? I guess writing that way qualifies you as a first-class academic; whether anybody understands you is a secondary consideration, I suppose.

    Cam, read the quotes from Aquinas. He speaks rather simply, compared to you. Whom are you trying to impress? T’aint me, homeboy. wink

  • Joseph,

    “Apparently, that2 19:54:29
    Jaime, Genesis and Aquinas would disagree with you

    Aquinas and rarely disagree on things.  Love the guy.  And I haven’t agreed with Genesis since they chose to have Phil Collins front the band.  (I have it on good authority that Phil Collins is responsible for the squirrels in Kelly Clark’s attic)

    Jaime
    once again showing that he is intellectually dim

  • Joe, Joe, Joe,

    “Summa Theologica II-II, 25, 6 ad 2”

    When one reads the Summa one cannot generalize, because one may make a folly of one’s statements….

    Do you have any idea <objection that justifies WIZARDS!!!!  Not too many of them running around these days…

    Obj. 2:  Further, “love is proved by deeds” as Gregory says in a homily for Pentecost (In Evang. xxx). But good men do no works of the unjust: on the contrary, they do such as would appear to be works of hate, according to Ps. 100:8: “In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land”: and God commanded (Ex. 22:18): “Wizards thou shalt not suffer to live.” Therefore sinners should not be loved out of charity.

    Reply to Objection 2:  As the Philosopher observes (Ethic. ix, 3), when our friends fall into sin, we ought not to deny them the amenities of friendship, so long as there is hope of their mending their ways, and we ought to help them more readily to regain virtue than to recover money, had they lost it, for as much as virtue is more akin than money to friendship. When, however, they fall into very great wickedness, and become incurable, we ought no longer to show them friendliness. It is for this reason that both Divine and human laws command such like sinners to be put to death, because there is greater likelihood of their harming others than of their mending their ways. Nevertheless the judge puts this into effect, not out of hatred for the sinners, but out of the love of charity, by reason of which he prefers the public good to the life of the individual. Moreover the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner, if he be converted, unto the expiation of his crime; and, if he be not converted, it profits so as to put an end to the sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin any more.

    Notice something though???  The death penalty is a last resort!!!  For it says, “….when our friends fall into sin, we ought not to deny them the amenities of friendship, so long as there is hope of their mending their ways, and we ought to help them more readily to regain virtue than to recover money, had they lost it, for as much as virtue is more akin than money to friendship.”

    Finally it says about the death penalty, “When, however, they fall into very great wickedness, <b>and become incurable,</b> we ought no longer to show them friendliness. It is for this reason that both Divine and human laws command such like sinners to be put to death, because there is greater likelihood of their harming others than of their mending their ways.”

    So, Joe, let’s see…..first we are to afford them every opportunity, then if they be deemed incurable, according to the norms of the early 1200’s, then they may be judged…

    See, that is still the case today, but the causality is so rare, that it is almost unforeseeable.

    And there is nothing to say that Aquinas can’t be wrong…he did support usury and slavery, after all.

    Cam

  • Sorry about the double post Dom….I try like crazy not to do this, but part of my post didn’t post…maybe you need to look into that glitch or explain why it is happening, so we stop….anywhoo!!!

    It should start out, “Do you have any idea that Aquinas was talking about WIZARDS?  Right, he was talking about a specific type of sin that took place in teh 1200’s, wizardry.  He wasn’t talking about anyone who did something heinous….”

  • I’m sorry Cam. There is a bug in the software and I’m waiting to hear back from the developers. I think it has something to do with the use of HTML tags in posts, but it’s obviously not consistent and I’m trying to figure out what’s happening.

  • The only time that I’ve found it to be buggy is with multiple tags within one post. 

    I’ve now taken the habit of previewing the posts to make sure all is well

    Ok I’m off to mail wine (stupid yankees)

  • No problem Dom…

    I love the format, it is the easiest by far…I will say a prayer to St. Isidore of Seville…ya know, the hastily canonized saint of the Internet!!!

    And that darned nepotism…he succeeded his brother to the Archepiscopacy of Seville.  Man, what a corrupt family he was from….or….what a great man, he helped to create the Mozarabic Liturgy….

    Cam

  • Cam, do you seriously believe that the quotes I cite from Aquinas concern wizardry exclusively? Do you not think murder is a greater sin in God’s eyes that “wizardry”?

    Then again, you believe that because God “allows” something means that God actually promotes or causes that same something. Did not God allow Satan to afflict Job? Of course. Now, did God cause Satan to afflict Job? Of course not. Satan had the idea in his head already and relied on God’s permission to execute his plans. And God restrained Satan by making Job’s life untouchable.

    So much for your tortuous “logic.”

    Cam, the fact that God allows humanity to commit all sorts of evil does not mean that God is silent (cf, moral precepts dating from the OT) or that God will do nothing (cf, the Last Judgement), let alone that God commits evil Himself.

    If God does not allow evil, then you still have to explain (in terms that people can understand) how evil exists, and why God even bothered to formulate a protocol for atonement and redemption in the OT, let alone supply a Savior.

    And if you can’t do that in terms that people can understand, then you really have no basis for your case.

  • Joe,

    “Cam, do you seriously believe that the quotes I cite from Aquinas concern wizardry exclusively?”

    I don’t know, he’s too simple for me remember???  Give me a break.  I understand Aquinas completely.  I know exactly what he was dealing with….8 years of stugdy will get you there.

    “Then again, you believe that because God 8220;To this point, you have yet to answer those challenges directly.”

    Actually I have.  Every one of them….that is why I quoted Aquinas.  Then again, you haven’t exactly answered any of the challenges that Jaime and I have laid out either….But, I have answered your questions over and over, you refuse to see them….

    “I suggest we disengage from this whole exchange.”

    Whatever….that is fine.

    Cam

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