“Is Msgr. Sherman being accurately quoted? If so, what’s his agenda?” Lord, I hope not. I don’t think I could handle another agenda.

It certainly is a possibility that this is a misquote.  Either that, or the good Mgr. should review Sacramental Theo 101 several times.

However, there remains an “agenda” within the intellectualoids-of-Liturgy here in the USA: to do their best to discourage the Tridentine Rite.

It fits somewhat neatly with the group’s desire to ignore B-16’s extremely obvious use of Chant and Latin—not to mention precise adherence to the Missal’s text and the rubrics.

One only needs to survey the webpage of Nat’l Ass’n of Pastoral Musicians (NAPALM to us jaded oldsters)...

Msgr is dutifully quoting the “line.”  They truly do not regard anything before 1965 as valid.

Few indult communities are allowed to do First Communion, Marriages or Confirmations.

What Ecclesia Dei says does not amount to didly squat. Most dioceses do not abide by it, offer no Tridentine Masses and the few that do offer it only do so in a restricted sense: no First Communion, no Marriages, No Confirmations, wacky Mass times, locations with no parking.

Ecclesia Dei was foisted as a weapon against the SSPX. Ironically, the SSPX is flourishing and there is little animosity between SSPXers, Indultarians (Diocesean, FSSP, ICK) and “Independents.”

In fact, the laity shares from all these groups seem to share one thing in common: a dread of the Novus Ordo mass, the the “new” sacraments, the “new” architecture, the “new music and the “new” doctrines.

What “new” doctrines?

ninenot:
“However, there remains an “agenda” within the intellectualoids-of-Liturgy here in the USA: to do their best to discourage the Tridentine Rite.”

How well I know. The one holding a scalpel over the liturgy now is my bishop. :(

thomas colbert:
“In fact, the laity shares from all these groups seem to share one thing in common: a dread of the Novus Ordo mass, the the “new” sacraments, the “new” architecture, the “new music and the “new” doctrines.”

Fr. Ethan wonders what “new doctrines” you speak of. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Colbert, you are being sarcastic?

Patte and Father Ethan,

While we all know that there are no “new” doctrines, it might seem so to the observer—for example, one could infer that there are no sins against marriage (artificial contraception) nor against chastity (co-habitation)—nor against the 7th Commandment (stealing from workers/employers)—-

Or for that matter, damn near no sins at all!

How?

Well, if there are no sins, there need be no Confessions, right?  In many parishes, confessions are scheduled for the 30 mintues falling between ‘wedding time’ and ‘Mass-of-anticipation’ time—and then only on the 5th Saturday of the month…(/sarcasm)

But really, there are no “new” doctrines..

Fr. Ethan, in re:  “What ‘new’ doctrines?” - none, but the translation of “pro multis” in the Mass to “for all” in English gives the appearance of new doctrine.  Apparently there is extensive exegesis to support the change; however, that exegesis is not provided at Mass.  Since the translators presumably took into account the culturally Protestant environment in which the words would be heard, they would have known that some American Catholics (and some Protestants) would hear in “for all” the intent of universal salvation, which, if I understand correctly, would be a new doctrine.

If the Vatican approved the translation to read “for all” in both English and Spanish, there must have been compelling reasons to do so, given the foreseeable risk of misunderstanding and scandal.  Some trads fled mainly because of that one change.

I believe what happened is this. The reporter knew nothing about traditional Catholicism, so when he called the USCCB for a statement, the reporter made it sound as if the group was independent or with the SSPX. The Msgr. could have been referring to the validity of the confessions, marriages and confirmations of independent groups - ie sacraments that normally require jurisdiction. I would give the benefit of the doubt to the Msgr. and blame the reporter.

PS I am making this assumption based on some posts from the head of UNA-Voce Buffalo. He said the reporter knew nothing about the issue and made it sound in parts of the article that UNA-Voce was an independent group.

If Msgr. Anthony F. Sherman wasn’t misquoted then he probably meant exactly what he said. Ecclesia Dei really hasn’t amounted too much. Many good people in my diocese have begged the bishop for a Tridentine mass and he always says no. A number of them have gotten tired of waiting and either go to DC, MD or to an independent parish.

Has this bishop never heard of Ecclesia Dei?  Either:
a) one has to wonder what percentage of time he actually spends on his duties (what else is he doing (??!??) OR
b) one has to question whether this man is feigning ignorance for an ideological goal. 

What’s up?  This is like a farmer who can’t figure out how to milk the cow he’s owned for 10 years. Weird.

This is like a farmer who has decided not to farm at all but he sits in the farmhouse and his name is on the deed. Meanwhile, the crops rot and the animals are dying of starvation (except for the rats which are exploding numerically.)

The “valid” remark wasn’t part of the quotation.  I think it’s just a slip on the part of the reporter, who doesn’t know the specific meaning of “valid” in the discussion of sacraments, and meant “allowed” or “licit”.

Rome needs to put this on the fast track. A lot of people are going to be reading this article and thinking he may be right. People can be easily persuaded. But, of course he is wrong. One only needs to read about his religion but unfortunatly people don’t. Read the catechism of the Council of Trent Msgr. or are you afraid it might reveal something.

Whew .... the Tridentine Mass may only be pronounced illicit…. what a tremendous relief </sarcasm>

What new doctrines ?

The new doctrines that people are accused of rejecting when they state objections to, or decry amgiguities in the content of some Vatican II documents. 

The new doctrines which aren’t really written down anywhere but which get meted out everyday on the parish level: universal salvation, denial of the real presense of Jesus in the Eucharist, the doctrine of ecumenism, the celebration of Mass as a celebration of community, etc., etc.,

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